kewe65
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Velocity/CDJ and JRMC

Mon Aug 15, 2005 2:34 pm

this post makes no sense whatsoever:

>kewe65: No. Using JRMC versus Velocity / CDJ is an either/or decision. If >you're using JRMC as the back-end, Music Lobby is talking to the Music >Lobby plugin in JRMC exclusively. If you're using Velocity / CDJ as the >backend, Music Lobby is talking exclusively to the Velocity server.
>
>This goes back to the earlier post that the Velocity / CDJ method will work >for MP3s but not other formats, as CDJ only supports MP3s (to my >knowledge), whereas JRMC supports many formats.
>
>In short, I think you're probably using Velocity / CDJ right now and can >close / eliminate JRMC, FWIW.

The WHOLE POINT of running both JRMC and Velocity/CDJ is so that MainLobby sees the combined libraries in one view.

Also, CDJ does not support anything but CDs in CD Changers - you're mistaken about MP3s.

This combined view has been the stated objective since day one - made clear on more than one occassion - and was alleged in other posts as possible with the right set-up

Now you're telling me that the original premise will not work. AND, this contradicts my experience - albeit intermittent - where I have been able to see both players and hard drive within the MainLobby view while both above were running.

The *trouble* is that this doesn't work consistently.

Anybody have any real world experience with MainLobby showing a complete listing of both hard drive and players and what the appropriate settings are for these:

JRMC
Velocity
MainLobby

PLEASE?

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rondepping
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Mon Aug 15, 2005 3:32 pm

Sorry but CDJ does support MP3 playback. I have them configured in CDJ myself. You need to create an album and then add them to that album.

From the Nirvis website: http://www.nirvis.com/cdj_features.htm
Playback
Supports multiple changers (up to 96! - that's 19,200 CDs!) and multiple S-Link buses and allows for nonstop music by alternating between the changers and pre-queuing tracks
The title bar in the main window always shows you what's playing and what the current playback position is
Automatically keeps track of the status of each player, showing you up to the second info about what disc it's playing, whether it's paused, or if the player is moving to another disc
Adjustable cross fading control feature allows you to smoothly blend from one song to another just like a DJ would.
Built in support of MP3 file playback

From the Slink-e help file:http://www.nirvis.com/help/help.htm
Adding mp3 files to the CD library
To add MP3 files to the CD Library, you must first create albums which will hold the files. By going to Library | Create Audio File Album, and new album will be created in the library for you.
Edit this album to give it an appropriate title and artist name.
Now you can add MP3 files to this album via drag-and-drop from Windows Explorer. Pick the MP3 file(s) you want to add from explorer and drop them into the track window for the MP3 album or directly on top of the album itself in the album window.
Alternatively, you can select the MP3 album and go to Library | Add Audio File to Album in the menus to browse for a MP3 file to add.
Some things to remember
Each MP3 takes a bit of time to add because it must be read completely to determine the actual playing time
Adding a MP3 does not move or make a copy of the MP3 file, only the filename and path. If you move the MP3 file, CDJ will no longer be able to play it.
MP3s can be used in all of the same ways as CDs - you can put them in playlists, add images, lyrics, etc.
Some MP3s contain ID3 tags which allow the title and artist to be identified, CDJ will use these when possible. Otherwise CDJ will use the filename as the title.


On to the Question:

Velocity runs on port 9000 , JMRC runs on port 7000 and MusicLobby only allows you to choose a single port it is a one or the other choice.

I run MUL w/Velocity on 1 system talking to CDJ and on a different pc I run MUL/ JRMC for my ripped music.

To run both on the same PC requires that you change the musiclobby.ini file to connect to either Velocity or JRMC before launching MUL. If you search this board there are discussion on how to this, along with the pros and cons of doing so.

HTH

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Re: Velocity/CDJ and JRMC

Mon Aug 15, 2005 5:25 pm

kewe65 wrote:this post makes no sense whatsoever:

>kewe65: No. Using JRMC versus Velocity / CDJ is an either/or decision. If >you're using JRMC as the back-end, Music Lobby is talking to the Music >Lobby plugin in JRMC exclusively. If you're using Velocity / CDJ as the >backend, Music Lobby is talking exclusively to the Velocity server.
>
>This goes back to the earlier post that the Velocity / CDJ method will work >for MP3s but not other formats, as CDJ only supports MP3s (to my >knowledge), whereas JRMC supports many formats.
>
>In short, I think you're probably using Velocity / CDJ right now and can >close / eliminate JRMC, FWIW.

The WHOLE POINT of running both JRMC and Velocity/CDJ is so that MainLobby sees the combined libraries in one view.

Also, CDJ does not support anything but CDs in CD Changers - you're mistaken about MP3s.

This combined view has been the stated objective since day one - made clear on more than one occassion - and was alleged in other posts as possible with the right set-up

Now you're telling me that the original premise will not work. AND, this contradicts my experience - albeit intermittent - where I have been able to see both players and hard drive within the MainLobby view while both above were running.

The *trouble* is that this doesn't work consistently.

Anybody have any real world experience with MainLobby showing a complete listing of both hard drive and players and what the appropriate settings are for these:

JRMC
Velocity
MainLobby

PLEASE?
As pointed out in the previous post, CDJ most definately DOES support MP3 files.

CDJ handles physical CD changers AND online (harddisk) based MP3 files. Combined with Velocity you will see a single view of all media combined showing BOTH physical CDs AND MP3 files added to CDJ using the instructions posted in this thread.


JMRC handles MP3 and several other 'digital' formats (digital being defined as files that are stored on a harddrive vs. being in a digital format) but does NOT control any physical medium such as CD changers.

Hopefully this will help clear up the confusion.

kewe65
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Tue Aug 16, 2005 3:32 pm

sadly, it does clear up some confusion.

i was expecting that MainLobby would show me a combined view of all the hard drive files and the sony cd changers, but that is not the case because only CDJ can have a combined view and it won't show anything but MP3. (which is strange because i thought at one point i was looking at a combined view - i posted to that effect - but i suppose i was mistaken).

therefore, MainLobby adds no *signficant* value to me whatsoever... i still would have to flip back and forth between JRMC and CDJ and the MainLobby UI out of the box is not nearly comparable to the JRMC UI - out of the box.

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Tue Aug 16, 2005 3:51 pm

kewe65 wrote:sadly, it does clear up some confusion.

i was expecting that MainLobby would show me a combined view of all the hard drive files and the sony cd changers, but that is not the case because only CDJ can have a combined view and it won't show anything but MP3. (which is strange because i thought at one point i was looking at a combined view - i posted to that effect - but i suppose i was mistaken).

therefore, MainLobby adds no *signficant* value to me whatsoever... i still would have to flip back and forth between JRMC and CDJ and the MainLobby UI out of the box is not nearly comparable to the JRMC UI - out of the box.
CDJ will show a combined view of BOTH MP3 files AND CD changer based media at the same time.

What formats are you trying to play via JRMC? IE- Are you trying to play non-MP3 media (other than the cd changers)?

kewe65
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Tue Aug 16, 2005 4:06 pm

I understand that it will show just HD MP3 and the changers.

Yes, of COURSE im trying to view other file types from the hard drive. I have WAV, APE, Apple's AAC format, MP3, etc., all viewable within JRMC...

It would be nice if someone would solve this. Music Library 2.0 is now the closest product out there since it will show all the hard drive files and the Sony Changers with the EXCEPTION of the AAC format because he doesn't have a Java decoder for that file type... YET. That product could use a graphic designer's touch, though, as the UI is rather crude.

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Tue Aug 16, 2005 4:34 pm

kewe65 wrote:I understand that it will show just HD MP3 and the changers.

Yes, of COURSE im trying to view other file types from the hard drive. I have WAV, APE, Apple's AAC format, MP3, etc., all viewable within JRMC...

It would be nice if someone would solve this. Music Library 2.0 is now the closest product out there since it will show all the hard drive files and the Sony Changers with the EXCEPTION of the AAC format because he doesn't have a Java decoder for that file type... YET. That product could use a graphic designer's touch, though, as the UI is rather crude.
Given the fact I knew you were previously unaware that CDJ supported MP3 files at all, I apologize for trying to make sure that this point was clear.

Outside of suggesting that you standardize your digital assets into a single format, there is currently no solution that meets your diverse needs.

I sincerely wish you the best of luck in your endeavor to find a product that fully provides the level of satisfaction and format diversity you are seeking.

kewe65
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Tue Aug 16, 2005 5:29 pm

thanks for that note, appreciated.

it's really not practical to expect someone to standardize on one particular format. there are a myriad of valid reasons, a few of which are:

- Ripping SACD/DVD-A.
- iTunes and other protected formats will be the lay of the land for the foreseeable future and tools that bypass that security are not always stable.
- Lossless formats are certainly more desirable given the continuously dropping costs of disk space.

in my opinion, it should be the job of the software to become more flexible and thus more palatable by an ever widening customer base rather than suggesting a more restrictive process if you want to continue to use a product... I'm not a software developer, but I do manage eBusiness programs for a large computer company and this is a fact of life when forced to be highly competitive.

and because this market is still pretty fringy - you must have technical expertise above common plug-n-play - the competition is minimal, leading to these sorts of scenarios...

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Tue Aug 16, 2005 5:49 pm

kewe65 wrote:- Ripping SACD/DVD-A.
- iTunes and other protected formats will be the lay of the land for the foreseeable future and tools that bypass that security are not always stable.
As an eBusiness manager I assume that you realize most of these are illegal correct?

The DMCA http://www.copyright.gov/legislation/dmca.pdf makes these features very unlikely in any product that would be available in the mainstream market.

AAC support is possible but costs significant $$ to have a legal license and a substansial amount of capital investment to get started.

Messing around with breaking decryption is a risky business thanks to the DMCA and it is unlikely you'll find many developers who want to deal with the related issues and headaches.

I also agree that a product should provide value and maintain flexibility with regards to its' intended market. However, as you noted, this market place is more esoteric currently and it is quite difficult to break even let alone acheive profitability at this time.

That's not to say that there are no products on the horizon that accomplish the majority of your desired features (sans any DMCA related considerations) but I'm not at liberty to discuss future products at this point.

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Tue Aug 16, 2005 5:59 pm

Exactly - the illegality of tools that rip SACD and AAC plays a role, too. And even more so in the necessity of not trying to converge to one type or another.

There are legal avenues for software developers to take - a Java decoder for AAC will be here soon enough, for example.

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Tue Aug 16, 2005 7:39 pm

kewe65 wrote:Exactly - the illegality of tools that rip SACD and AAC plays a role, too. And even more so in the necessity of not trying to converge to one type or another.

There are legal avenues for software developers to take - a Java decoder for AAC will be here soon enough, for example.
Closed formats with properitary DRM systems are the cause of the problem here. The costs to LEGALLY implement these formats is not within the reach of probably 99.5% of all developers.

Simply reverse engineering a file format, writing a compatible decoder and releasing it to the world as open source doesn't make its' usage any more legal with regards to DMCA.

DeCSS is but one example and look at the large number of commerical products that are no longer available and the fact that legal costs bankrupted a considerable number of the companies using the technology that originated thereof.

It's not that developers don't want to incorporate these features but are instead completely out gunned, out financed and out powered by the companies that own these technologies.

However, those issues aside, YOU are the one who chose to use several different format types yourself and are now suffering the consequences. Now that you've gotten yourself a mess you are placing the burden on developers to solve your self-inflicted problem.

How much are you willing to spend for a product that solves your problem? $59? $99? $199? The reality is that the product would cost several hundred dollars (if not thousands) in order to simply finance the licensing facets alone.

Step back and look at companies like Kaliedoscope that have gone to every measure to make the industry happy and to do things right only to have the industry come after them anyway. Why do you think systems like Kaliedoscope cost in the 10s of thousands of dollars (and up)? It's not due to the hardware expenses or development costs entirely but largely due to obscene legal bills and trying to financially manage licensing costs while still trying to make a profit.

AAC is financed from iTunes which is financed from online music sales. SACD is financed by Sony and a handful of other stakeholders.

Have you ever tried negotiating a license or royalty schedule with someone like Apple or Sony? It is ridiculously difficult and they have absolutely no interest in talking with you unless you bring suitcases full of cash.

Like I said, I sincerely hope you find a product that makes you happy but don't kill the messenger simply because you don't like the message.

You'll either have to wait for a product to arrive that has your desired features or you'll have to make some concessions and use what is available today.

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Tue Aug 16, 2005 8:42 pm

>However, those issues aside, YOU are the one who chose to use several >different format types yourself and are now suffering the consequences. >Now that you've gotten yourself a mess you are placing the burden on >developers to solve your self-inflicted problem.

that's silly. i didn't self-inflict anything - it's a two-way street, bub. in fact, my desire to find a solution that does not involve ripping everything to hard drive is more in keeping with integrity of the source. and im not placing burden on software developers. its never the developer's burden - they produce what the business designs. the only thing i said about developers is that im not one.

im simply on for the ride, searching for solutions to possibly common issues, and making commentary along the way.

only in a flatly opinionated way did i suggest that software companies as a group in this esoteric market should focus on broader compatibility as a means to attracting a broader spectrum of customers. gee, imagine that.

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Tue Aug 16, 2005 10:10 pm

=D>

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Tue Aug 16, 2005 10:51 pm

kewe65 wrote:>However, those issues aside, YOU are the one who chose to use several >different format types yourself and are now suffering the consequences. >Now that you've gotten yourself a mess you are placing the burden on >developers to solve your self-inflicted problem.

that's silly. i didn't self-inflict anything - it's a two-way street, bub. in fact, my desire to find a solution that does not involve ripping everything to hard drive is more in keeping with integrity of the source. and im not placing burden on software developers. its never the developer's burden - they produce what the business designs. the only thing i said about developers is that im not one.

im simply on for the ride, searching for solutions to possibly common issues, and making commentary along the way.

only in a flatly opinionated way did i suggest that software companies as a group in this esoteric market should focus on broader compatibility as a means to attracting a broader spectrum of customers. gee, imagine that.


The problem is they don't want to share customers. Unfortunately they all have the general idea that it is an all or nothing proposition.

While what you say makes perfect common sense it just doesn't work that way currently. It's next to impossible to get most manufacturers to even release details on their RS232 protocols so their products can be leveraged. They simply don't care and prefer to stick to their current strategy of trying to maintain a captive market. They work together as 'partner' companies like AMX,Crestron, Kenwood, Sony etc. A very large amount of the info available to the mainstream is info that was leaked or obtained on the sly. You would think any manufacturer who places an RS232 port on their device and publishes it as a selling feature would also be interested making it extremely easy to utilize.

Sorry to deviate from the topic at hand but I merely wanted to provide some insight into why everything is so complicated when it comes to automation.

There is an incredibly profitable market selling and installing extremely expensive systems that may or may not even provide the same level of functionality the MainLobby products do. That market is very closely guarded and efforts are made to protect it from the manufacturer level down.

Until the industry itself can cooperate it will remain a rocky road. Apple doesn't want to share the AAC format with anyone; Sony doesn't want SACD on other products etc. etc. They aren't satisfied with a little of your money, they want it all.

Add in the other format wars with WMA, QuickTime, Real and etc. and the entire issue gets even muddier.

There are high end products available today that will acheive what you are looking for if you are willing to spend the $$. The pricing starts in the 10K range and goes up from there. The more features you want, the more you'll spend.

I use the term developer loosely. A developer is anyone from Bob in his basement to an Apple or Microsoft.

Not even a company the size of Microsoft can persuade an entire industry to want to play nicely together. Until the industry as a whole decides to pull their head out of the sand and realize it benefits everyone to interoperate more easily we will be stuck with the mess we have.

Software companies only have a limited amount of influence overall when included in the media industry as a whole. Now, factor in DMCA, RIAA and numerous other DRM mechanisms forced on us to help protect us from ourselves and things get clear as mud.

The DRM solutions stop the average Joe from sharing with his buddies at work but we're talking about a tiny fraction of the dollars lost on the whole. DRM does nothing to stop those who actually profit from piracy but it does create an entire industry of products and platform solutions that are essentially worthless in the end. DRM is a silly product but provides the gateway to help companies like Apple keep their arms wrapped tightly around AAC and formats like SACD closed.

While it may seem that I deviated from the topic, my point is once you start dealing with these seemingly trivial format issues they in fact open Pandora's box with regards to the much larger issues really at play.

Now, none of this solves the problem at hand but hopefully provides some reasoning as to why no one simply sits down and goes to work on a solution. There are a lot of us out there that are more than capable of producing a solution but don't want to get embroiled in the legal issues and would also like to at least break even on costs to produce and support such an application.

To summarize this entire thread, what you want doesn't exist within reach of the average consumer for a myriad of reasons. If you have a ton of money to throw at the problem there are solutions available today via the high end products and hardware.

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Wed Aug 17, 2005 1:42 pm

=D>

:mrgreen:

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